Mashup University - Introducing Apollo
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Published
Tuesday, January 16, 2007
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11:23 AM
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I presented Apollo at Mashup University at MIT today. I covered a mindmap that I made on Apollo, created simple apps in Flex and Apollo live, and ran some demos apps in 40 minutes. My presentation went well and I got some great feedback. If you have not attended a Mash-up camp or Mashup university, these events are great. Every time I go, I learn a ton. The key is that the quality of developers here is very high and the content presented is great.
Apollo Mind Map PDF
What I thought was really interesting was the parallel presentation from Microsoft who spoke after me. They were presenting on the MS 3D Mapping project at http://maps.live.com. The solution presented was IE7 only and required the installation of .NET 2.0 runtime in addition to IE7. It was classic Microsoft pitching a Windows-only solution to developers. The technology was good looking but it was intended to force end users toward Windows.
I talked about the defacto requirement that applications support a wide range of platforms and browsers compatibly. Gone are the days of delivering platform specific solutions and porting applications later. The AJAX revolution is really about making the most of what is available today in a compatible way. With Apollo developers can deliver desktop applications on all versions on Windows, OSX, and Linux and with Flash Player developers can deliver to all browsers cross platform. When you compare WPF and Apollo, what becomes very clear is that WPF is intended to drive Vista adoption and Apollo is designed to deliver compatible cross-platform applications. These goals could not be farther apart and are almost polar opposite.
I will be talking about Microsoft more and more in the following year. They really haven't changed a bit and are up to the same old platform lock-in tricks with their new technologies. What I did find inspiring was that over 50% of the laptops at Mashup University were running OSX and from the podium I was staring at a bunch of glowing apple logos. I have seen this over and over as I speak at more conferences but this time it was ever present. As Apple, Linux, Safari, and Firefox rise in market share, the need for cross-platform solutions is growing.
Really it comes down to a simple question:
How many users do you want to reach?
Cheers,
Ted :)
True. A hotter way to phrase it: "How much of your audience can you bear to lock out?"
Strict audience requirements can be appropriate in some situations, but not in most of the more interesting opportunities we're seeing today.
(btw, congratulations on teaching at MIT, I didn't know you had that in you.... :)
Sounds like fun. Perhaps you should have done a "king of the mountain" sort of thing on stage.
I would rephrase the thing about "developers can deliver desktop...on all versions of Windows... Linux..." to:
"developers WILL BE ABLE to deliver desktop... on NEWER versions of Windows... and (not sure what the deal is with Linux".
Also, I'm not sure that MS is really intending to "force end users toward Windows". I'm not saying they're not, but I don't know. My take is that they're actually sort of going to the same target that Adobe is.
Apollo sounds great... though, I'm more psyched about the continued momentum behind Flash player generally.
Also, I didn't know Ajax was about "making the most of what is available today"... it's a big mix of that plus masochists who are often trying to avoid Flash for a variety of reasons.
Finally, I think Apollo/Flash/Flex will stand on its own... it doesn't matter if it's trying to reach 100% or even 80% of an audience. It's more whether it can add value to its target.
Perhaps you can post a photo of you in an MIT cap and gown or just holding an honorary degree.
Few comments to leave behind ;)
Not sure what the presentation was about, or what not as I wasn’t there but let me clarify the notion that WPF is solely about Windows Vista adoption.
WPF can run on XP, its much prettier and fluid within Vista but it doesn’t have a pre-requisite that it must be housed within Vista only (it is ideal though). Its more about an agile approach to .NET development of old, is ensuring the developer base can easily put together an end to end solution inside our products with minimal effort.
I mention this as to simply label it as yet another evil marketing ploy to invoke more widespread Vista Adoption and tagging that as being the only reason for its existence really does undervalue its potential.
You know I’m a FLEX guy through and through, but I’m also a guy that will put fingers in all barrels as I keep hearing this slogan a lot in IT.
“Right tool, Right job”
Yet I can’t find the Whitepaper for it ? so I invent my own.
FLEX and Apollo sound really great on paper, but it’s the details that they come up short on. For instance, what is the Apollo Persistence strategy, in that I’ve been reading all I can on Apollo but I’m yet to see any clarity on how one is able to say talk to an MS Access Database natively? Or MySQL Database? Or insert your own here. Where is that connection between client-side and server-side and how does one do it? Does it still require a server-side solution such as Coldfusion or J2EE goodness to make it work?
It’s interesting to also note, that the development environment for FLEX and Apollo is still not quite good enough. As a consumer of FLEX and also hopefully soon, Apollo I’m a bit perplexed at as to why there is not more being done in this space?
For years, the Skinning capabilities for FLASH have always been a consistent bane and pain point for developers and designers (put aside the constant flip flopping over Framework strategies, the inconsistent properties on most classes and behaviour to match). I know the frameworks better then I know any other language that I’ve ever touched, and you’ve seen some of my art when it comes to FLEX and I’ll simply say that it’s just too inconsistent and damn site hard to string it all together.
I say this not to up sell all on Microsoft is better so therefore bite me, it’s not the case at all. It’s more about being relevant to the enterprise platform developers or the folks on the street that need to put customization back on the table.
WPF offers up potential, for a lot of things. You combine Expression Suite with Visual Studio and its a compelling argument on how easy life is to go from a Designed UI to a living breathing functional UI. Its effortless at best and I continue to compare the two.
In all honesty offering up sales pitches that an output is x-platform compatible therefore it must win, is majority of the time irrelevant. Most organisations offer up one platform, Windows simply because its much easier to support and its the devil they know (hate it or love it). Getting into discussions about X-Generation technology usually starts when you as a business aren’t sure of your target audience (public consumers). Then yeah, banter that argument around for a bit and all the power to you (I mean that truly).
FLEX/Apollo serves a purpose and I continue and will continue to support it, but I wouldn’t close out on WPF or WPF/E with remarks about them being solely in place for Vista Adoption. They serve many other purposes and there can be harmony in all if folks are willing to push aside brand politics and focus on the “Right tool, Right Job” approach.
Put fingers in all barrels, it doesn’t hurt! I wouldn’t compare Apollo and WPF together, as its Apples and Oranges and any such debates end up turning into are you on the red team or blue make a stand punk! Discussions.
I respect your points Ted, but I think this is one post where you’re not in-tune with what consumers are actually thinking outside the blogging community (I’ve really found that the blogging community to be a different face to the developers deep within most Enterprises?)
Scott be honest, you sold out to Microsoft (Full-Time Employee) so you can comment spam blogs in the Adobe marketplace for a living.
Ted :)
--
You know I’m a FLEX guy through and through
--
???
You might want to make it clear that you are a Microsoft employee and evangelist.
mike chambers
You're correct. I am a Microsoft Developer Evangelist for Australia, focused on Web technologies ( a click on my URL would of illustrated that and most who know my name, know this?)
I am also a consumer of adobe products, and have frequently contributed to the FLEX community.
My context for saying "I'm a flex guy through and through" is that I'm not really interested in the brand politics, i'm more focused on finding harmony on how each pieces of the puzzle can come together.
I'm doubtful that either brands are going to own solutions end to end, there is too much disparateness and that there is going to be synergy between the two.
The reason I feel strongly about this, is that I have felt it.
As for "Sell-out" remarks? Very disappointing to read that but I respect you as a developer first Ted, and can understand your perspective but humbly disagree with it just the same.
My underlying point is, that WPF can exist without Vista, and to come out and say it, is not true. Given that you're an Evangelist yourself, its fair to say that you would be open to ensuring your product is relevant to the community at large. I mean there is for sure some folks out there that are in the .NET space that would like to see how products like FLEX and Apollo can play a role in their day to day lives. So yeah, if there is a need for a dotNet solution out there that has to be x-platform compatible then Apollo could very well be an elgant solution, so lets work with that and help?
There's more to this post? I apologise if we have strayed. I saw a incorrect opinion and thought I would help by contributing.
Scott,
Sorry but a month ago you loved Flex and suddenly when you get a new postion at Microsoft, Flex is "not good enough"?
"Apollo sound really great on paper, but it’s the details that they come up short on." - SB
Scott, you are not on the private alpha for Apollo, so how is it that you suddenly know the "details"?
I have written a MYSQL driver using flash.net.Socket for Apollo. We discussed it over IM or did you forget our conversation?
Should I post the IM message transcripts you sent bragging about your new Microsoft position before you actually got the job?
Scott you have never posted a paragraph in the comments of my blog, but as a MSFT employee you are suddenly writing a novel. What changed?
Be honest. I am happy to have the open honest debate but you are not being truthful.
ted
Hmmm.. Is this now about the original post or something else?
I know your folks aren't thrilled with the Idea that I'm an employee of Microsoft so lets seperate the agendas a bit and entering into personal slug fests does no good for either parties reptutation. Suffice to say, I would like to work with Adobe folks more and extend the "harmony" approach to things?. People just dont run out and adopt an entire brand end to end. It just doesn't work that way? I'm sure both our share prices would love that, but reality states the opposite.
I honestly have no idea what specifically is going to be in Apollo. I'm like everyone on the outside looking in, reading Mikes presentation(s) and so forth. I'm generally curious as to what the specifics are. I keep poking holes in the marketing spin as to be honest, all I get about Apollo right now is that its still FLEX housed inside something I can buy from a company like Multidmedia? I'm a potential consumer of Apollo and a consumer of FLEX (my employer aside) and I want to know more? Is that not fair?
Word on the street says the same? (locally anyway) So I know you can't talk more about it and I respect that but thats the posture in play at the moment? So private alpha or not, your PR isn't getting through for my money anyway.
I posted a paragraph or more on your blog (sorry about the line breaks, not sure what went wrong there) simply because I wanted to express an opinion. I don't speak on behalf of Microsoft in this piece (personal position actually), and I tend to type a lot (MossyBlog illustrates that - my ex-workers will say that). Wasn't sure there was a word-cap per comment?
Furthermore, when I see a person in your position making assumptions what Microsoft is or isn't doing, and you then ask for comments on the matter? (which I thought was the intent.. comments anyway?) in what way is this spam? You just hinted at discrediting my posts because "I'm not on the alpha" for Apollo?
Well you're in a sense out of the loop in terms of what WPF is and isn't about. I on the other hand, am trying (while failing ever so badly) to highlight some actual facts around the matter.
If commentry that is MS flavoured is not what you desire, then maybe a disclaimer of some sort may prevent this further? (which I'll be happy to comply with). I'm not just buying the anti-Microsoft approach, i expect more from Adobe as a consumer and not as percieved competitor (especially since i've supported the brands or its merged brands for the last 10 years).
As for MSN transcripts? I really don't care, I wasn't bragging I was actually happy that I may have a job offer with Microsoft and wanted to celeberate that with folks I knew and assumed were friends? (you were about the 9th person on my MSN that day).
The comment was "heh, I think I could be your competitor heh if I get this job" (intent anyway). I expected some remark like "oh bring it on dude,! hehehe" friendly gesture. You basically went the political route, and thus i'm on the defense now in a post trying desperately to get out of this as I really don't want to get into this with you in a public forum. Its childish and reminds me of the days when my best friend once said "Spiderman will own Wolverine in a fight" ... we ended up throwing punches... say what you will, but Wolverine is a bad ass.
I've never posted a paragrah in your blog cause usually I'm ok with your posts, just lately you've gotten so blind-sided by Windows being the devil, that this time I felt you were wrong. Sorry, i'm not buying the anti-Microsoft flavoured posts? (and this pre-dates my existance with Microsoft. A post on MossyBlog called "AJAX, Microsoft, Macromedia and Religion" illustrates my pet hate for that kind of thing.
Feel free to correct me I am open to new suggestions on the matter.
Anyway we appear to be digressing into brand politics something I really don't want to ever get into as I think its ignorant and not in both brands interest to get into that side of things.
Lets leave it at that I disagree WPF solely exists for Vista Adoption only and you agree that is.
I'm sure a year from now both sides of the argument will come out in the wash.
In closing, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm more then willing to work with Adobe in anyway I can to establish some solutions that benefit the developer base (within our respective brands policies etc etc) that also solve problems more importantly but also makes it fun? is that why we both started out in the FLASH space? because it was fun! (its so serious now and its lost its sex appeal). Question is are you?
Scott,
Lets circle back to your original issue. I believe that WPF was created to draw users to Vista. These apps benefit dramatically from hardware acceleration (a hardware requirement for windows vista) and are less than usable outside of Vista, zero support for WPF on OSX and LINUX. It is possible to run WPF on XP with .NET 3.0 and WPF runtimes installed but without harrdware acceleration it is a poor end user expierience. Running WPF on anything but Vista with specialized hardware is a mistake.
I got a Mac Pro workstation 4Cores and 6GB RAM and installed Parallels and grabbed a Vista ISO to test the Vista Flash player on. What was interesting was that Vista was slower than Christmas on my Mac Pro becasue it was running virtualized and could not take advantage of hardware accelleration. Mind you this is a 4Core machine with 6GB of RAM and Vista was dead slow. Hardware acceleration for Vista is a very hard requirement and the OS just doesn't work without it. This includes the WPF feature set primarily.
I ran some tests with the Gadget bar on this non-hardware accellerated Vista install and running the WPF Clock spiked CPU to 80% across all 4 cores.
Vista is a gift to OEM's who want to move Windows specialized hardware and sell bigger machines to end users. What is obvious to me is that this is all very unnecesssary for end users. Somewhere in the XP SP1 timeframe computer hardware dramatically eclipsed end user needs and now software and hardware manufacturers are searching for demanding use cases to drive sales. Microsoft created Vista and the WPF to up the end user requirements of the base operating system to spur sales of new machines, that part is obvious. The problem is that end users do not need it or want it. From the look at the number of people using Macs at Mashup Camp and the widespread use of Parallels virtualization, I think me may have reached the end of Windows dominance at XP. This is why I am talking about the growing need for cross-platform solutions.
I fired up Ubuntu Linux on my MacBook Pro laptop and it is about 3X faster than XP. It is more operating system and capability than anyone needs but it lacks applications. With Apollo we will be able to deliver better apps into that growing market and that is key to understand.
Microsoft's agenda of moving the world to Vista is not going to happen and the future landscape of computing is a mix of operating systems with apps that work cross-platform in the browser and on the desktop. Actually what is interesting is that Apple is winning over developers so quickly that I think Vista might just fail to get off the ground.
The problem is that I think the hardware dependency might backfire in the marketplace. Why in hell would I buy a Vista capable machine, when I could buy an Apple and run OSX, Windows, and Linux in one?
My take is that Vista is going to bomb and Apple will just take MS's lunch and eat it. Seeing as neither OS will get market share, the real winner is cross-platform.
Disclaimer:
-----------------------------
This is not an official response from Microsoft. It is my individual opinion and should be treated as such.
-----------------------------
Ok, this is the convo i love to chat about.
(Looking forward to that beer hopefully in March if you're in Sydney as i think it will be another night like I had with Sean Corfield and Branden Hall PM rolled into AM and lots of theories and predictions being made hehe).
I could argue the points further into much more deeper, focused remarks. I just today read a bunch of market research, statistics and probably a lot of internal stuff that will likely get my butt fired for public consumption. Yet, it won't make a difference as thats just PR spin.
What I will say however in reply is this.
Microsoft has been cooking Vista for quite some time, in fact one could argue that it even appeared that in a sense, Microsoft seemed to "Stop developing" for a while. It reminded me of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory suddenly going quiet.
Now in the past 6 months, we are launching stuff. Our marketing is going into over-time and discussions like this are occuring every single day "Apple are going to own you guys, you are so dead, Bills leaving the company which means you are going down and he knows it" type arguments.
I've read them all and you know what, I honestly can't say for 100% sure all are correct.
That is why I joined Microsoft (that and it pays pretty damn well hehe). I joined because I looked at all this negative spin and thought "Woah, what could I do to help".
So yeah Apple has some numbers that are climbing and kudos, its a pretty sexy operating system (My brother was showing me Parrells the other night he's loving it!).
I ran Windows Vista inside VMWare on a PC and thought "cool, nothing special" as the AERO wasn't kicking in due to it being it Virtual mode.
So anyone who's used any virtual machine knows that you take a hit when you run things in a non native fashion - Apple included (XP looks crap in OSX, i noticed the differences).
Yet to the point at heart. Vista hasn't even been launched officially (except to specific Partners).
I'm reading the internal memos and there is a significan buzz around it, people are asking me daily "Barnesy, send me a copy on the side would you?"
Microsoft have sat dorment for a number of years, i'm not up to speed as to why but i'll say this.
The starting gun hasn't even fired for us.
Lets wait a year or two and come back to this post and see how relevant it is. I predict that Vista will hold the market share, more so I predict that Vista will inspire new positions in terms of technology and software.
WPF is still got more goodness to go, and that story will continue to become more and more relevant and of course housed inside Vista you'll see a richer perspective but that aside it doesn't exist solely for Vista adoption it really at heart exists for .NET programmers to bring UX into the conversation. Just so happens it coincides with Vista and both complement each other.
I think FLEX and Apollo will shape Adobe into the new "you" and if you don't screw it up (ie like Macromedia did when they released FLEX 1.0 at $15k per CPU... man I was so annoyed with that) you could be a thorn in our side in terms of sales figures but as long as the solutions being made are relevant, we can lick our wounds and try a different approach.
To quote Robert Kennedy:
Progress is a nice word. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies.
Wow... look forward to round 2... seriously though I'm also a long time Macromedian now working at Microsoft as a User Experience Evangelist, each to their own... but lets play nice there's room for everyone!
I'd just like to comment on your original post as I find this is typical view of Microsoft from someone enveloped in another technology solution... obviously I think your view point is wrong, but actually I can totally understand where you're coming from as it's easy to make these assumptions. In the same way it's easy for someone enveloped in the Microsoft technologies to assume Flash is still a simple animation tool and nothing more.
In your post you mention the map example you saw at MIT, this is in effect a point solution that absolutely leverages technologies on the Windows platform, we make no bones about this and in no way try to mislead or imply otherwise that this is not the case. In fact local.live.com, even in its 2D form, fails to run in the Safari browser, again this is something that has been documented by the local.live team and in this case is down to bugs within the Safari core. The important thing is we're not try to mislead people with our presentation of what we are doing or what’s necessary to run the examples.
In reality when we talk about 'rich applications' there are two focus areas at Microsoft; these are simply depth and reach.
Depth is about building compelling Windows applications. No more no less. These applications are built using a combination of .Net and WPF and leverage 100% the power of the desktop. Devs build the frame work of the app using .Net, and designers build the interaction layer for the app in WPF using the Expression tools and you end up with a great Windows desktop app experience - assuming the devs and designers are good ;) This is a huge win for the design community as designers are now being integrated into a workflow where they couldn't really play before.
Breadth for Microsoft is about a new plug-in which is available in a pre-lease form called WPFe. The 'e' stands for everywhere. Firefox, Safari, OSX, IE, Windows etc, this is a cross browser, cross platform solution for delivering blended WPFe, Ajax, HTML content within a browser.
Which is a better approach Flash/Flex/Apollo or a Visual Studio, Expression Blend, WPF/WFPe? Well I know which one I'd choose, and I guess I know which solution you'd choose ;) but at the end of the day the important thing for developers and designers alike is that they now have a choice. Moving forward they can choose the best solution for both the client and project they are working on.
The other huge plus for the community is when you have two large software companies focussed on the same space you always get some GREAT tools to help people realise their visions!
It should be an exciting few years!
lol... I've just seen your next post Ted... I'm still going to post this comment even though you obviously now baiting, it’s like a bun fight at the OK Coral! J
WPF is a forward looking technology and is designed to take advantage of the hardware on the machine, if the required hardware isn’t found it will degrade to a software renderer, that is an expected behaviour. WPF is a V1 technology that’s been designed to be forward looking, but still provide a good experience for people with older hardware today. I personally think this is a good thing.
I also like your assertion that Microsoft has an agenda of trying to sell Vista to the world, errr, we’re a software company that builds an OS called Windows and our shareholders like it when people buy it. Funny that. I take it by your comment that Adobe doesn’t have an agenda for selling copies of CS2/CS3, Flex etc and they’re in just for the love ;)
WPF is about allow more compelling applications to be built for Windows, maybe you saw the new Yahoo messenger that’s was announced last week at CES. Simply awesome. The most sensible hardware to leverage to enable graphically rich applications was, drum roll, the graphics card. People don’t want or care about the nuts and bolts of the technology, what they want are real solutions to real world problems and that is what WPF enables.
Well like I said it’s going to an exciting couple years... and the winner... the designer and developers that are building the apps, and the consumers that get better experiences on their computers.
Just to be clear, the original (and I believe primary) issue, is that we have a Microsoft evangelist who is posting as "a Flex guy" without making clear that he is employed by Microsoft.
Someone may understand Flex, but if they are employeed by Microsoft as an evangelist for a competing technology, I personally feel it is unethical for them to present themselves as "a flex developer", and not make their affiliation with Microsoft clear.
Btw, this isn't the first instance of this type of stuff occurring, which is why I made the original response.
mike chambers
mesh@adobe.com
Mike,
I run FLEX. I run WPF, I run Google, I run lots of things. Its how I stay relevant so that when I'm faced with a customer or even a developer who's not a customer and they ask "How do I get .NET to talk to Flex?"
My response:
You can use mx:Remoting tag, now you'll need to buy the Flash Remoting gateway of old if you want or you can upscale to Flex Data Services...
and the conversation flows.
I signed my name with a URL blogs.msdn.com under it. Just like Phillip did with his and JD does with his.
I noticed JD didn't either. I don't remember this blog also saying Ted on Flex - Ted being the Flex Evangelist?
I call foul, you call fair play. Who's to say who's right in the end? (except this is just turning into brand wars again).
oops just realised Teds got a different banner. (Heh so much for my noticing his blogs UI).
Actually thats a good point, I find at times I remember a blogger but never their UI?
I retract my Ted disclosure remark ;)
Ted,
It was great to hear your experiences and opinions from Mash-up Camp. I'm still getting into flex, and am really looking forward to being able to dip my toe into Apollo when its out.
It's also very interesting, but unsurprising how the Microsoft guys came at things in their presentation, and in their comments.
The comments from their side almost seem like they are filtered through Microsoft PR before they are posted, and they don't seem to get the point that a huge concern for developers and users alike is we *NEED* stuff that is truly cross-platform and cross-browser.
As a user (specifically a Mac user) and a developer Microsoft just isn't speaking to me, everything is so Windows centric, and their idea of cross-platform seems to primarily revolve around "well WPF works on XP also not just Vista."
RIA's can't afford to be cast into the dark pit that web development has been for so long, simply because Microsoft thinks that only Microsoft matters.
Truely cross platform? As in ASP.NET AJAX and WPFe. Both technologies are designed to work cross browser, cross platform giving the same experience on both Mac and Windows, Firefox, IE etc
Lets not confuse cross platform web technologies with WPF. WPF is a Windows only presentation technology for building Windows applications. When we talk about WPF, it's from that view point. It's NOT cross platform. Much in the same way OSX Core Graphics is not cross platform.
Jon Harris
Microsoft UXe
This post has been removed by the author.
[ I am the same person you were replying to above (brechan), I needed to updated my profile name in Blogger ]
To be blunt ASP.net and WPF/e don't cut it.
I've seen instances where ASP.net pages that were (or appeared so atleast from the user point of view) to be just a simple data entry form. This form would POST the data using IE correctly, but would not even work in Firefox on Windows. Maybe the programmer just programmed it "wrong", but I've never seen a similar PHP page that does the same thing. How about serving ASP.net from OS X or Linux? Is that possible?
As for WPF/e, where is linux support? How can I develop a WPF/e application on my Mac? Is WPF/e guaranteed to work seamlessly on all platforms it's available on, or is it crippled so only some things work on the windows version?
What guarantee is there that Microsoft will continue to develop and improve the plugin on rival platforms? Microsoft has had a bad record of dropping support for their applications on Mac recently (IE for Mac, WMP, VirtualPC) or just plain making software that is so crippled from its windows counterpart that it is laughable (Messenger for Mac).
Adobe just seems much more committed and genuine in letting the rest of the world participate in creating and using these applications, not just Windows users.
No problem with you being blunt :)
On the ASP.net front if a dev is targeting IE on Windows it's perfectly possible to write something that doesn't work in other browsers - that's not a fault of the technology. Not the fault of the dev either if that's what they were intending.
The WPFe player has been designed to be easily ported to other platforms as and when the market dictates, and the market is dictating Mac and Windows at the moment.
WPFe will offer the same functionality across all platforms.
In terms of developing WPFe applications you can build them on the Mac in exactly the same way people are building them on Windows, in your favourite code editor, there isn't a visual tool available yet, although there is a template available for Visual Studio. It's also worth keeping in mind that WPFe is a preview release at this stage.
I agree Microsoft has over the last few years shelved products for other platforms, some I understand IE and VPC and others I don't WMP (although WMV, WMA is now back on the Mac due to WPFe), where we offer cross platform, cross browser technologies they will offer the same functionality across all platforms.
I'm happy that you're finding the Adobe products fulfill your needs. Much as I expected before I joined the Microsoft the market is split by people who nail their colours to a mast... http://aralbalkan.com/784#comments and those who take a more pragmatic approach... http://richardleggett.co.uk/blog/index.php/2006/12/21/reflecting_on_wpfe#comments
It's great that we get to approach the same problems from different angles... it's what makes the world interesting :)
Jon Harris
Microsoft UXe
Wow, I leave on customer visits and the MS PR Department takes over my blog comments! Cool!
Seriously guys, I can sound harsh in comments but there is more the story with Scott Barnes. Scott and I worked together on a start-up of mine and I have a huge respect for him as a technologist and developer. I would go way out of my way to buy Scott a beer, simple as that. Just becasue he is ont he opposite team representing weaker technology solutions doesn't mean I dislike him as a person, actaully far from it.
I have a post coming on WTF/WTFE this weekend which should be a fun and baised read, plus it has a nice Star Wars theme to it.
Have a great weekend!
Ted ;)
A career in PR... hadn't thought of that... does it pay better than evangelism :)
lol... seriously though look forward to your thoughts on the MS technologies... keep well.
Jon
I can't remember where I heard/read this from but basically a thread's ratio from Signal to Noise is around 5 replies.
In that you could go to a forum say on WoW site and you'd see a post and about 325 posts down you'd see another post "Did you watch WestWing last night?"
I think this kind of has bottomed out around the same point.
Anywho? IFBIN.com is probably the one you're refering to Ted yes? Great concept, still back it.
Ted's looking to push my buttons and thats cool, I'd be shocked if he didn't do that ;) and yes I look forward to the discussions when your in Sydney in March (it should make for an entertaining conversation for bystanders...no animals will be harmed in the making of it though).
I had a post ready for Ted, this afternoon on my way home and thought it would be something that could be applied to all of the anti-Microsoft folks out there (I'm an agnostic developer btw, so I even love Laszlo still and Delphi / Turbo Pascal - yes even them!- and and even reading a Python book now - Ted got my interest in that actually).
It goes like this (its fictional so back off you hounds..back off I say - *lawyers that is*):
Ted Says:
Microsoft is going to loose this time round, Vista is going to bomb and the share price is falling every day.
Scott Says:
Ummm let me check.
*Scott - Notices the Share Price has moved in the last 24 hrs*.
Scott Says:
Dude, you're so right, thankyou, you've just opened my eyes.
*Scott - Proceeds to draft an email to CEO/Chairman of Microsoft*
It reads:
Dear Execs,
I got a hot tip from Ted, he says we are going to loose the market and life as we know it - commercially - is going to come to grinding halt.
Sure, we haven't officially launched Windows Vista yet and WPF or WPFE and hell, Expression is still coming along but we just can't compete any more no matter that its all still in beta / ready-to-launch cycles!!!!!!, dear god man, have you NOT seen the Apple Numbers and Flash Penetration stats? that's some scarey stuff! we are doooooomed! People are running XP on OSX...OSX MAN!!! Apple even mock us with their Aero vs OSX speech given by jobs.
I even feel they are mocking me now...cursed souls, they'll pay!
Not only that,
Now Apollo is creeping into the Desktop market, so Adobe are likely going to dominate that given they have the Browser Plugin market sewn up already with 98% usage.
I'm disenchated and I'm not sure I can hold the fort much longer. Either send me re-inforcements to the onFlex.com blog or we will suffer dire consequences.
P.S
They caught onto me being an inplant Microsoft spy on an Adobe developers blog. I don't know how they knew, maybe the link to my name that went to a blogs.msdn.com gave it way... i just don't know... they are talented these folks, and they've outwitted us again.
Please help or send me a care package to hold me over while we disolve Microsoft into pieces and try and get by for the next 50 years of our adult life. I pray my children will remember this as the day that the great Brand War of 07 occured.
Oh the humanity of it all...
stop.
Regards,
Scott Barnes
Assistant Strategy Advisor for Corproate Affairs and Evil plots.
Scott Says:
Ted!.. do you need a shoe shiner, i'll be good govna, oi'll shine them der sho`es real goodin i willz.
Ted Says:
No, i warned you that the empire would crumble, just like i warned Caesar his would...
* Hears dramatic music *..
Scott Says:
So it is true, you are the.....ageless man of wisdom...
* Camera fades skyward from Scott left on his yelling into the falling rain*...
Scott Says:
Damn you god, why have you forsaken me..
- the end-.
I love technology, and that is why I work for Microsoft.
Disclosure:
-
Scott Barnes,
Developer Evangelist,
Microsoft, Australia
Latitude: 27° 30' 8" S (deg min sec), -27.5022° (decimal), 2730.13S (LORAN)
Longitude: 152° 35' 30" E (deg min sec), 152.5917° (decimal), 15235.50E (LORAN)
I'm also wearing a Red Stripe Shirt, Blue jeans and White shoes. The jeans and shirt I got from Tarocash and the shoes..i can't remember.
I had McDonalds for Lunch today well, it was more at 3:30pm. I own a Ford Territory, Mercury Silver and I admit it... i was speeding at certain points on the way home...oh the shame...
Hopefully Mike & JD satisfied that i've given you all full disclosure now as i want to be real clear that I'm who I say I am not who I think I am, as to be Who I think I am is not saying who I say I am.. Am, I? ......
As my boss says: "Have you hugged a developer today?".
Lets let this thread close and die of a natural death shall we its time...no really...it's time...
A reality check on all of this can be summed up by the following: I'm cleaning out my office to make room for a baby.
Donate List: Professional ASP, Sams ASP.NET, MS SQL Bible, IIS Admin, Que JAVA 2.
Want list: anything Flex 2, anything AS3, anything written by Keith Peters
World, The above quote was generated while Scott was off his medication. All transcripts are hypothetical and were generated by Scott's imagination/dillusion!!!
The fact of the matter is that MSFT has lost grip with reality, is being run by a sweaty nut-case, has violated anti-trust in modification of the usability of ActiveX install while preparing competitive technology to be deployed through auto-update, and has the biggest OS flop in corporate history on deck. Not to mention aggresively trying to buy the designer market with a sub-par tools cobbled from the rubble of acquisitions and supported by an XML IOC mapping into legacy DirectX APIS which only work if you have a turbo powered video card.
I agree with your analysis Scott, MSFT is screwed, and no I do not need a cobbler!
I officially declare this thread and comment section dead and closed for discussion. (Not that the MS PR dept will mind that request.)
Ted :)
I got dibs on last say.
It goes something like this:
"Did you watch the last series of West Wing. I could of easily watched another season with the new president. Curse you hollywood, curse you indeed".
I would consider consider my self a technology whore cause I will jump on the next thing that makes my life as a developer easier. To be honest there is nothing about WPF that tells me it makes sense to move from providing solutions to all three popular operating systems to serving just one (Visa). OSX is gaining market share and it will be some time before Microsoft holds customers hostage and force an updgrade. With Apple symbols popping up everywhere what interactive agency in their right mind would switch to a Windows lock in? Evangelists can talk a good tech talk but it boils down to dollars and cents. Switching to WPF is not going to make dollars for developers and it sure doesn't make sense.
Chuck nooooo... Not the Java 2 book.
Hot damn, you both made my day just a little brighter.
Scott Barners
Man, as a evolution come throw against all puzzles of market miserable words or accomplishment with the new brand doesn't mean at all what others says.
You did a great job while you were talking about Flex I was at once a common reader of your blog since you started talking about Flex 1.0, Remember my first comment at your site? set,6 2004. While you were so afficionated and oficcially a decleraded Lover of Flex, you were rock.
But friendly you appear at another blog like Ted who is a great like you person who loves to talk about Flex. Since there Ted were at a other company but never trapped away or talking as evasivy situation where you talked.
I'm not here to scrud you or something releated.
But Man, with a honest words, Don't do that in public, if you were so friendly of Ted, why you decided to do that in public? As my Grand-Mother said " Wash the clothes at home not in streets".
If you love WPF, go ahead you are in your own but don't do that in circunstances of avoiding or doing something that the blog post haven't setted you there. Ted was on the right to say and of course he readed about policies at the Adobe Inc, against the fact you didn't since you have a plausivily post talking about your mistake, it's a honor post.
But be quite and don't repeat those situation mans with a big responsibilities like yourself can't do those things. If you will defend and talking a lot about WPF you could write talking the benefitst and plus of technologies you sell in words, not accomplished that in terms of bad behaviors or falt situations of other product of concorrencies.
Ted
I undrestand all the situation here and don't let you down for that, you are doing a remarkable work at Adobe trying to convice more developers to adobt the Technology.
But Don't mess up with those words you said against him. You have a good behaviors and if you were at MIT it was that has no situation you can't forget your position.
Keep doing you work, forget about the buzz and this kind of stuff only alert the community to the bad behavior or something ugly specially if you're going throw a war on that. And I know your potential you're not kind of man for that.
As and Old General of US army said in the civil war 1892, "If a man has the power to avoid a war, why they let the war happens?" You know what I'm talking about.
So, keep doing both of you guys Technologies it's for be switch in what kind benefits overall those brings not kind discussion could trap all.
Be Peace Both.
Ignor
I thank you for comments and I take them on board (seriously).
I will leave you with a quote i've been throwing around as of late.
Progress is a nice word. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies - Robert Kennedy
(oops) Igor, sorry for putting the n in your name. No offense I hope.
I'm on a TablePC and I have large fingers...
Sorry for this comment spam reply ted :)
i have a bigger cock... but my piss travels longer... and so it continues
-- eokyere :)
So far it was interesting read, blogs give everyone a way to express opinion. And if I read comment with positive and unbiased mindset, I get to learn about the both sides...
I don't think it was a flame war...
-abdul
Scott, you are still face of Flex :)
http://www.cflex.net/FacesOfFlex/
-abdul